My first thought is can there be that many traffic deaths to justify surveillance cameras in Halenut? I would imagine that the cameras will be looking at more than just speeding vehicles. It is mans nature to spy on others.

I would like to see drivers who tailgate get tickets. They usually are the ones who are speeding, as well as, jeopardizing the safety of the vehicle in front of them and oncoming traffic. How about placing the cameras by the roadside everywhere? At least 2 cameras to a city block and on a country road let us say every 2500 feet. It is my experience here in Missouri that other drivers do not allow you to do the speed limit be it you are on a freeway, interchange, country road paved or gravel.

It would be my guess that the reason for cameras to detect speedsters at tights or intersections is increased revenue for Hazelwood and that public safety is not the real concern. City council's like to find new ways to increase revenues. What could be more perfect. You would not have to hire traffic officers and pay them an income; just set up a surveillance camera. Camera's do not require health insurance, a salary, vacation, supervisors or have to appear in court. Frankly, I would like to see a city council abolished and replaced by volunteer citizens that rotate in and out of council chambers not to get too comfortable with personal agendas.

Oooops, I meant Hazelwood not Hazelnut. I apologize. I take Hazelnut in my coffee.

Those who give up a little freedom for a little safety deserve neither. - Ben Franklin

This is for you Dan. Dangerously Vague Cybersecurity Legislation-Cybersecurity Act of 2012, S. 2105 ("Lieberman-Collins"), and SECURE IT, S. 2151 ("McCain") . This is what you should worry about. Govt. access to US citizens email and much much more w/o a warrant. You can bet the gove will hook into traffic surveillance-Thank you John McCain, Joe Leiberman and Collins. Nice work!

Fewer accidents and increased revenue can seem like win-win to local officials. The city will want to keep good statistics to defend itself against the charge that this is just a way to raise taxes.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/29/district-columbia-mayor-wants-to-cover-city-with-traffic-cameras/

Full disclosure: Mary Singleton is my siste-in-law.

There is a common misperception that cameras would catch and penalize drivers who go over the speed limit or run red lights. It can only cite the owner of the vehicle, which is not necessarily the driver. There is also a time lapse in between the alleged infraction and the notice arriving in the mail, which may or may not even be sent to the owner's current address. Having a police officer give a speeding ticket avoids these pitfalls and carries much more impact. That is why video citations do nothing to increase the safety on the road. They are merely designed to generate revenue for local governments and companies that profit from pseudo-traffic enforcement.

I agree with your blog Councilwoman Singleton. It is difficult because yes, I want to be safe and hope the cameras will curb speeding but at the same time you do feel like your privacy is being violated. Also, will council ensure police will keep their jobs if you bring in these cameras?

Regarding the privacy issue - if you don't speed, you won't be photographed.

I Totally agree on having camera's in Hazelwood and Florissant too if possible. Even if it saved one life it would be worth it. Too many ppl are speeding and running red lights just to get to no-where fast. Slow down ppl the life u save might be your own.
God Bless

How are cameras any different than RADAR guns for catching speeders? Oh yeah not enough police officers to man all the locations where speeding takes place...like parking lots for example. I'm not advocating speeding at all. Living on the first court see too many individuals entering our subdivision and going well over the 25 MPH limit when going over the hill...for what? This is a tough one/choice between safety and "big brother watching" (privacy). Could it also be the first step into cameras that could also be aimed 360 degrees and look into your homes, yards, etc.(privacy)? Whatever happened to common sense, obeying the law, and respect for privacy?

We need to stop the speeders. Howdershell is 30 mph in Hazelwood, most drivers go over 40 mph. More police officers??? The radio says you don't have to pay your fine for running a red light. Next you don't have to pay for speeding if caught on camera. And just how much money does the city of Hazelwood get from the fines collected off of the cameras. Just a police car sitting on the road slows traffic. We have a three way stop sign at my intersection, most cars don't even slow down they just breeze right through. Everyone is in such a hurry today. We do need something to inforce the road laws. So if we can't have the man power we need the camera. I'd rather be safe.

This has nothing to do with safety? Is the intersection at Howdershell and Lynn Haven any safer because of red light cameras? I think not. This is all about generating more income for the city.

How about citizens with radar guns taking turns monitoring speeders on their street? This would be like a neighborhood watch thing. All fines should go into neighborhood coffers to go to community improvements and not to city officials. Well, it's a thought anyway. This eliminates cams on the streets and the hiring of more police patrol. What do you think? Do you have any ideas on this issue?

My daughter's street is clearly marked a 25mph zone and folks use this access street in excess of 40mph. because it is an off the track residential zone.

Being hadicapped due to a young woman running a red light(and she admited she ran it), I would like to see statistics that prove red light cameras do make a safety difference. There are now red light cameras on the intersection where I was hit... there are still accidents there.

I sort of think that it is done for money more than safety.

Full Discloeure: I volunteer with Mary Singleton

I am not in favor of putting cameras on Howdershell. However, I would be in favor of using the posted speed limit signs (that are posted in our neighborhood from time to time) to remind you of how fast you are going. This is a deterent and that is the only type of method I would support. I feel the cameras that are already installed in Hazelwood up on Lindbergh are only revenue producing for the city and not for the sole purpose of safety.. So my vote is NO.

Does anyone know what the speed limit is on McDonnell, Howdershell, Shackelford? I doubt it since it varies all over the place. Before speed cameras are placed, Hazelwood, the county, Florissant, etc. should get together and establish a consistent, rational speed limit. I consider speed cameras just a money grab by any municipality that establishes them (i.e.- Charlac on 170, etc.). I favor a state law that gets rid of all of them.

If safety is the REAL issue here. Hire more police officers for ticket purposes only. The fines they bring in will more than pay for their salaries. This solution is a win win. Creates more jobs and also makes our streets way safer than cameras would. That is if city officials are more concerned about streets being safer rather than bringing in more revenue. Which I believe is the case.

I'm not a fan of any branch of our government using cameras to survey citizens. This action makes some of us nervous because quite honestly, the government cannot and should not be trusted. Here is another consideration, this is another "good idea" that adversely affects the poor. Many of us can pay the $100 fine and not even bat an eye. However, this would burden people like my Mother who is not the greatest driver and is living on a fixed income. Another "good idea" that adversely affects the poor are the " Missouri safety and emissions inspections" poorer people own older cars and end up being the ones who must spend the most money trying to pass the inspections.

Speed cameras presume guilt rather than innocence, contrary to our most basic right. Tickets are issued to the owner of the vehicle even if they are not the driver and the burden of proof is then placed on the car owner.
You can't face your accuser in this case because it's a machine. And this, to me, amounts to surveillance of the people, which the government is SUPPOSEDLY FORBIDDEN to engage in. There is NO guarantee the governments won't turn them on all the time with no notification to the people, or use them for other reasons. I just do not trust the government.
Who will be accountable if the cameras are in error? What kind of transparency could be expected from the police and city about the errors? How easy would it be to get citations corrected or removed? Would some people who are victims of errors ever even know? Will the camera set up, installation and maintenance be outsourced and will that company receive commissions per ticket? All of the suspected answers to the questions above give me chills.
Speed cameras will change driver behavior to slow down for the camera and speed up after passing it, causing inconsistencies in speed and may cause more accidents.
Red Light Cameras have been shown to INCREASE accidents at intersections while it has also been shown that increasing the yellow light interval by ONE second will DECREASE accidents. Surely we can find a similar speeding alternatives, like Don's comment combined with the speed indicator signs.

A MUST SEE! Especially if you suspect and do not trust government intervention:

ETHOS
www.ethosthemovie.com/

Sheri Jay, Look up CISPA on the internet. Spying on US citizens is now being considered for vote on the senate floor. Also, drones (US Airforce & US ARMY)already are in flight by our military and private enterprise in our US air space to spy on our country's citizens. Where do you think surveillance is taking us besides outside of democracy?

absolutely against cameras. What if the person caught speeding happens to be a felon? Is the camera equipped with handcuffs?? How about if the speeder is also drunk. Will the camera give a sobriety test? We pay police to catch speeders. Remember a few years ago...could not speed on howedershell... cops were every where. Don't take the easy way out. We have police let them do their job......

I am against speeding cameras. Let the police monitor the situations. This is just another gimmick for some company to make lots of money while Hazelwood gets a portion of it at our expense. I don't generally speed, but if I am going over the posted speed limit, I am doing it safely when conditions allow.

I am totally against all cameras. Is that what it is coming to. Take pictures of everyone all the time and if they make a mistake make them pay. I have never had a red light ticket and I try to observe all the rules. However traffic cameras (Red light speeding etc). is over the top it is totally about the revenue. I know Hazelwood is trying to make up the revenue they lost with the Ford Plant. This is not the way to do it.

In order to be done properly the speed camera has to be maintained by a Hazelwood Police Officer while in use. This seems like a complete waste of time. I want the police patroling the neighborhoods NOT running a speed trap!! ABSOLUTELY NO to speed cameras!!

More police on the streets not hiding behind a computer!

Absolutley YES to the Speed and Red Light cameras. If you don't break the law, you have nothing to worry about. I want MY TOWN (Hazelwood) to have the nicer things in life....like O'Fallon, and Creve Coeur, and Chesterfield do...and if that comes at the expense of thugs driving thru my community....all the better.

Data has shown that accidents decrease when cameras are in use. Safety on public
roads is more important than a perceived sensitivity of privacy. Yes to cameras.

Cecil Holloway
What are these cameras going to cost? What is the fine if caught by these cameras? What % of the fine really goes to the City of Hazelwood? For Red Light cameras in existance now, Hazelwood only gets $33 of each $100 fine.

I do not agree with having the camera's.

Everyone here is whining about "generating more money for the city" but if that takes the place of raising taxes to provide the serviecs we demand ...then what's the issue? I'm as libertarian as the next person...but really....Europe has had cameras since the early 70's...all major metro areas have them..L.A....N.Y....the cameras catch crooks in the act, the cameras catch your elected officials and their appointees doing wrong....They catch you and me...they occassionaly make a mistake...just like the cops do. They are not intended to take the place of the cops...sure, we'd all like more police on the streets. But we have to PAY for that somehow!
Just sayin'

Last year someone ran a red light and hit me when I was making a left turn. Other drivers saw it happen but didn't bother to come forward as witnesses. The other driver lied about running the red light. My brain was scrambled and I had trouble forming sentences to tell the officer my account of what happened (for example, I was the third car after the light turned green). If people are going to lie about running red lights and the witnesses are going to neglect reporting what they saw, then we need red light cameras. I lost financially and there is still some physical pain. I'm still nervous about that intersection. It needs a red light camera.

Brian, great argument. I like Gary Lee's better, however. Certainly there are other more recent facists to reference...how about George W and his Patriot Act?
That's what makes this country great. We get to express our opinion, eh?

So if I set my cruise on 39 mph down Howdershell, I will be a safer driver than if I am doing 41mph... hmmm

I also do not agree with having the camera's.

Year after year you vote to increase taxes on yourselves. Now you want cameras to keep an eye on yourselves. Stop being so gullible. Hazelwood is not L.A. or NY. The crime per captia can't be compared! This is not a safety issue. It's proven not to be a deterent for excessive speeding. Stop the nonsense. It's politics and there are some "trusted folks" who are going to get paid really good!!!! Besides, the police will still be everywhere writing tickets. Did you think that would stop? Oh, by the way Rick, Thugs exist in many communities, including those illustrious ones you mentioned and would one day like Hazelwood to be like. Or, maybe you meant the Thugs like the ones on Wall Street? Anyway, it's OUR town and community. You don't own Hazelwood. We ALL care about it. So, I vote NO to more eyes and more taxes!

Wow...you sound angry...sorry...just trying to stimulate some robust discussion. You are absolutley correct, thugs do exist everywhere...especially on wall street. No...I don't own Hazelwood and I know we all do and should care about our community.

I'm with Rick, this is a public forum to express opinions. Name calling is unnecessary. Respect my opinion as I respect yours. No need to become angry.

I do agree that people who are not familiar with our area may get confused in the changing speed zones. 1)Will this change the number of police officers serving our community or will we need more people to monitor the new system? 2)Will this create a better system for law enforcement...fewer traffic stops might give our police force more time to be in our neighborhoods protecting our community...not just issuing speeding tickets. Thanks to all for being good citizens and talking to each other. And I appreciate the chance to have a say without feeling intimidated.

http://hazelwood.patch.com/articles/city-council-approves-introduction-of-a-speed-cameras-ordinance-for-hazelwood-american-traffic-solutions

Did the Chief of Police just state it is OK to speed up to 10 MPH over the speed limit?

Here is my issue with red light/speed cameras. If I get stopped for either by the police I receive a ticket and even might have to go to court. Points are then assigned to my license. Get to many of those and insurance goes up and my license could be taken. With a ticket from camera as long as I have the money I can break the law with out fear of increased insurance rates or having my license suspended. In effect the same crime will have two different punishments.

Can't debate that one as it is what it is. The speed camera should deter from speeding but will not place the punishment on the person (unless they have a picture of you specifically vs. your car). Thus, the two, that you mentioned cannot be compared. However, you get more then 1 of the speed camera tickets, that will hit you in the pocket book and could deter one from speeding in the future.

I for one do not think the risks associated with speeding are worth the speeding. Have I gone 5-7 mph over the zone, yes I have in order to flow with the traffic however not in a school zone. I have NEVER gone 40+ in a 30 due to the fact you pointed out (however I see it ALL OF THE TIME on Howdershell) , I do not want the cost and points associated with the ticket. Also, there is a very good reason the zone is 30, schools with children walking/crossing the street, residences with cars pulling out of their driveways, etc. etc. etc.
Follow the speed limit and you get tailgated. I think the police need to focus on them more as they are just as dangerous if not more so.

Do you want Hazelwood to be like St. Ann ? With Northwest plaza shut down St. Ann lines up police cruisers 4 or 5 deep to write speeding tickets on I-70. Why ? NOT for safety but for Revenue. The county police chief does not support speed cameras or red light cameras. These cameras do nothing for safety but do put money in the city coffers. Why make Hazelwood into an unfriendly place to live & do business? Just so the city can make money? What a shame. When this passes, (and believe me it will) Hazelwood residents & businesses will suffer the consequences.

Mary, thank you for posting your thoughts. Very controversial/interesting topic. Sorry if this is not the proper place to post this, however, I just don't understand a lot of things. I don't expect answers... these are just some things I think about...

If the red light cameras are all about safety at intersections, why don't they have them in all directions. For example, the one at Howdershell and Dunn only have it in one direction. I guess they don't care about the safety of the all the drivers. If your going to have them at an intersection why not all directions? I thought we were worried about safety?
If we are worried about safety, shouldn't school zones be 25mph during school hours/days? Almost every city I drive through, it is a 25mph school zone with flashing yellow lights! Not on Howdershell.
If we are worried about speeders, why don't we penalize the speeders. Make the fine $ 1,000 if you are caught speeding by a police officer. That would generate some revenue. I don't go over 35 mph on Howdershell because of the police patrol and a lot of times I am lucky to get up to 35mph because of traffic during rush hour.

Here are some interesting links regarding our topic:

Speed cameras reduce road accidents significantly: Study

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx

http://phys.org/news140443278.html

http://alttransport.com/2010/10/7966/

It's this kind of conversation that makes this country great, eh. Congrats to Mary for starting such a ROBUST discussion....don't know what the record is for discussion on the Hazelwood patch...(i'll bet someone knows, though)...but this has to be right up there.

RICK:
Ditto! I appreciate the civility of the discussion as we are all entitled to our opinions.

Brian;
Great links. Thanks for sharing.

1)Errors happen today with speed guns thus errors are going to happen. At least they caught the errors. I ? is how often will the cameras be calibrated?
2) I would like to see professional statistics that show speed cameras cause accidents. That does not even remotely sound reasonable or logical. With statistics there is always the chance of coincidence. Just like roulette: the previous numbers have NOTHING to do with the chance of what the next number will be.

3)Now I do not want sound the way this will sound however, of course revenue will go up. The correlation is that the more cameras catching the law breakers the more revenue the city will receive. However,at least HW is NOT like the municipalities of those on Interbelt 70 and I-70. THAT is what would drive businesses and homeowners away -- SPEED TRAPS.

SOLUTION: DO NOT SPEED. For God's sake the buffer is STILL 10 MPH which is 33.333% over the speed limit. WHY do we need to go any faster!

I am against the cameras, but regardless, let's be honest. This is about raising money. I don't believe there are an unusual amount of accidents in Hazelwood and I can not recall any fatalities. This is not about "saving" lives.

We already have too many cameras watching us. If the speed limits were consistent from McDonnel north, there wouldn't be such a problem with speeders, It's hard to tell what the limit is unless you're constantly watching for the signs. By-the-way, you don't have to be tailgating to be put in danger by someone suddenly slamming on his brakes when he sees a camera.